EPISODE 9 TRANSCRIPT
Like the MFM podcast this site is not about big facts and truths so somethings may be incorrect.
March 26, 2016
9 – Color Me Nine
The theme for this episode is “hiding in plain sight.” Karen covers an Exorcist serial killer and Georgia talks about children who murder. Plus stories and favorites from listeners!
Episode 9: Color Me Nine Transcribed By Skyler E.
Feral Audio
*My Favorite Murder Theme Song*
Georgia: Murder, murder, murderrrrr
Karen: Are you ready for some muuuurrrddeeerrr? *sing-songy*
*Georgia giggling*
Karen: We should look up, uh... synonyms for murder...
Georgia: Mkay
Karen: ...For this podcast
Georgia: Ok. Oh, for the names, the titles of the podcast?
Karen: No, no, just in general, so we don’t say that word as much.
Georgia: Ohhhh, right.
Karen: Killings…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Um… being taken out violently.
Georgia: Assassinations.
Karen: Assassinations.
Georgia: What are we going to name this episode, do you think?
Karen: It’s number nine?
Georgia: Yeah.
Georgia: Niiiiine….
Karen: Non Lives?
*Both giggling*
Georgia: That’s pretty much how this goes...
Karen: Spitballing
*Both giggling*
Karen: It doesn’t get better after that.
Georgia: Never..
Karen: Welcome, everbody… to My Favorite Murder
Georgia: Hiiiii!
Karen: That’s Georgia Hardstark!
Georgia: That’s Karen Kilgariff!
Karen: I said it like I wasn’t sure.
Georgia: I know.
Karen: That’s… Georggggeeerr?
Georgia: Georger, right?
Karen: Georger Harsharst?
Georgia: That worst is when someone misspells your name in a professional setting when they should absolutely spell your name correctly.
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: Right, Karen Kilgariff with a complicated last name?
Karen: Yes. That’s happened to me many times.
Georgia: Me too.
Karen: Also the worst is when people say your last name, who you've known for years, and you realize that they’ve always thought it was Kilgar-iss
Georgia: Or Kil-ga-raff.
Karen: Kil-ga-raff. And you’re like… well, I wish you knew me more.
Georgia: I know! Hardstock… what the fuck? Hard and stark are two very simple words, and yet somehow next to each other, people freak the fuck out.
Karen: People freak out. Although I do do that thing where when I see somebody that I know for sure, uh… Like if I ran into Dustin in a bar.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: In my mind I’d go, “Hi Dustin” and when I would go to say it…
*Georgia gasps*
Georgia: What if I’m wrong?
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: Oh my god I do that, too! Except when I see someone that I for sure know, like Dustin, I’ll SCREAM their name in front of them because I’m so excited that I know them. You know what I mean?
*Karen laughing*
Karen: Like you want the credit?
Georgia: Yeah, ‘cause normally I’m like, I don’t know who the f--- I know who you are, but I don’t think I do.
Karen: Yeah. And I’m the kind of person that if I mess it up, and the person’s like, don’t worry about it, I won’t stop talking about it.
Georgia: Right. Or worrying about it.
Karen: Right. Or let me go.
Georgia: People call me Alie sometimes and I’m like… it’s okay.” It’s not okay.
Karen: *high pitched* It’s okayyyy.
Georgia: But it’s not.
Karen: Well, I mean you should at least get one letter right.
Georgia: Totally.
Karen: The first letter…
Georgia: Totally
Karen: ...is all I ask.
Georgia: I love that you have the word Kill in your name, too.
Karen: Well, me too, I find that it intimidates people.
Georgia: Yeah, we both have kind of like… hardcore, badass last names!
Karen: Yeah, you have like uh.. Yours is reminiscent of Charles Starkweather, the famous spree killer.
Georgia: Sure.
Karen: That we’re not talking about on this episode, but that we…
*Georgia giggles*
Georgia: Okay, up top before we start our favorite murders.
Karen: Before we start this bullshit?
Georgia: Yeah… is Someone Knows Something the podcast.
Karen: *gasps* YESSSS!
Georgia: I texted you the other day cause I knew you were driving…
Karen: I was… no, I was in New York. I was flying.
Georgia: Oh! Nice!
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: And I was like, you gotta listen to this.
Karen: Yeah, and I did.
Georgia: All of em?
Karen: All.. well, there were only three.
Georgia: Right, there’s a new one.
Karen: Oh, is there really?
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: I’ll listen to that on my drive homeeee!
Georgia: So this is, I didn’t realize it when I started listening, but it’s like, it’s... the entire season of this podcast is about one topic.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: Should we read the description?
Karen: Suuuure, because it’s good.
Georgia: It’s fuckin’ great!
Georgia: On June 12, 1972, 5-year-old Adrian McNaughton wandered away from his family at a lake in Eastern Ontario and disappeared without a trace. In Season One of Someone Knows Something, host David Ridge?...Ridgen, who grew up in the area, goes back in search for answers. And I had heard of this case and I never cared ‘cause I was like… he got eaten by bears...
Karen: Right.
Georgia: ...Clearly.
Karen: Right.
Georgia: But no!
Karen: The more he goes into it, like, that’s what I like about it, is you make up a thing. You hear facts from him and then you go, oh it’s that guy.
Georgia: Yeah!
Karen: Or it’s this guy. And then he keeps laying down hard facts that he goes out and looks at himself.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: So there’s recordings of him walking in the woods, testing the echo. Talking to people who have never talked to anybody about it.
Georgia: Right. Who were there… uh, there’s one guy who was there when he wandered away, and police had never spoken to him about it.
Karen: Had never spoken to him.
Georgia: It’s pretty… it’s a pretty great show. I hope it stays that way.
Karen: It’s so good. And, AND, I find sometimes I get a little bit impatient, and this is sexist of me. But when the boys get a little… um… wiiiistful and poetic about their own thoughts and feelings about things.
Georgia: Mhmmm.
Karen: I’m just like… uh huuuuh.
Georgia: That’s the opposite of sexist and I love it. Because that’s always sexist to say it’s women fuckin’ getting… being poetic about shit.
Karen: Well, true. True. But I mean like, I just have that thing where… yeah, I just don’t want anyone to be precious really.
*Georgia smirks*
Karen: But then I find it slightly more sickening if it’s a man.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Because I’ve bought into our cultural stereotypes and norms.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: BUT. When this guy does it, I buy it, I feel like he’s being sincere. I don’t think it’s self… self…
Georgia: No.
Karen: Uh… conscious or self-serving.
Georgia: He seems sooo sincere that it’s gr- and it’s clear that he’s written out everything he’s saying. It’s more of a story he’s telling, and the writing is good, and...
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: And he tells the story not in a boring way like some of the other true crime podcasts do.
Karen: Right
Georgia: The music is a little dramatic at times. The soundtrack’s... the sound’s a little dramatic.
Karen: But he’s Canadian.
Georgia: But it’s okay.
Karen: So they have a sincerity…
Georgia: Oh, totally.
Karen: That they don’t fear that here in America’s almost not allowed.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: And I like to, I like to indulge in that…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ...with a Canadian man every once in awhile.
Georgia: I LOVE this podcast. It’s our new the Simpsons. What we talk about at the beginning of every episode
Karen:*giggling* That’s Right.
Georgia: Which, of course means the People vs OJ Simpsons, not… OJ Simpsons?
Karen: OJ… As many OJ Simpsons as it takes to discuss it
Georgia: I mean… *giggling*
Karen: Although the last episode, I have to say, the one about the jury… was not soooo, I feel like...
Georgia: I loved it!
Karen: You did?
Georgia: You didn’t like it?!
Karen: I mean, I loved knowing... I didn’t know any of that stuff.
Georgia: I didn’t either. How… What a fucking bummer to be stuck in a hotel and you can’t speak to anyone or...
Georgia: For months...
Karen: For eight months! And then they didn’t treat them well.
Georgia: No.
Karen: No, well, it was… It was, it was good in that it was… um, kind of riveting, but it was riveting in an almost like, in a… uh… telenovela way.
Georgia: Yeahhhh.
Karen: It was ridiculously dramatic.
Georgia: It kind of took us off, the ummm… track that we were already on with all the episodes. It felt like we were moving forward, and this one didn’t really feel like it was moving forward.
Karen: No, but the other thing I like… it felt very different.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: But I also loved Marcia Clark and her new hair.
Georgia: She looks HOT, right?!
Karen: She looks great in that hair, and also she was so… badass
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ...In this one. There was no… She didn’t do any like… rim… tears on the rim of her eyes.
Georgia: No.
Karen: Or putting her head in her hands.
Georgia: She told uh… she told… what’s his name?
Karen: Johnny Cochran...
Georgia: Johnny Cochran... to go to the playground or something or… what was it?
Karen: Yeah…
Georgia: ...The daycare.
Karen: Go to daycare ‘cause this is the smoker’s lounge.
Georgia: Yeah, and I was like… okay, that really happened, which it probably didn’t. I’m so happy about...
Karen: I feel like it could have.
Georgia: It could’ve?
Karen: I mean, by that point, she’s so pissed, so many things, like DNA evidence got completely
Georgia: I know… I feel like today that wouldn't happen
Karen: No, no one knew what it was!
Georgia: What I’m loving more than anything is David Tremor’s character realizing his friend is a fucking murderer and him apologizing to his wife that... that… he’s defending a man who murdered her best friend.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: What a bummer!
Karen: What a terrible, I mean…
Georgia: I wonder, if he had quit the trial, would…
Karen: Would he not have died of cancer?
Georgia: Would he not have died of cancer and would OJ have gotten off? Probably not...
Karen: Oh, oh... you mean during it? Sorry.
Georgia: Yes.
Karen: Yeah, I see what you mean.
Georgia: Yeah, yeah.
Karen: Yeah, I mean… No, that would’ve been bad news.
Georgia: Exactly, so maybe that should’ve been his like… non-statement statement, that he’s like “I can’t support this anymore”
Karen: Yeah, except for that then, you’re basically choosing how a person’s life is going to go.
Georgia: Yeah… But, but defending him you’re doing the same thing. Or you’re trying to at least.
Karen:*whispering* I know, Georgia…
*Georgia giggling*
Karen: It’s so heavy.
Georgia: There’s a lot of decisions in life that one has to make.
*Karen giggling*
Georgia: And it’s not until they make a dramatic re-enactment TV show twenty years later about it that you realize the decisions you should’ve made.
Karen: Yeah, I mean, please live your life like you’re going to be re-enacted...
Georgia: Right.
Karen: ...In thirty years, and do you want someone of as high quality as Sarah Paulson…
*Georgia smirking*
Karen: To portray you?
Georgia: Yeah…
Karen: Or do you want...
Georgia: Then you need to live your life like, like Sarah Paulson could be
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: Your you.
Karen: A quiet nobility
Georgia: Right.
Karen: A single tear.
Georgia: Or do you want John fucking Travolta...
*Karen giggles*
Georgia: ...being the most flamboyant, incredible character since Behind the Candelabra? And maybe even better!
Karen: I love it though… but I don’t mind it, like…
Georgia: OH I LOVE it.
Karen: It doesn’t bring me out of it, I never think of John Travolta. I believe him.
Georgia: I… I do too. I don’t know if Robert Shapiro’s like that. I have to assume he’s somewhat like that in... personal... situations and I love it.
Karen: I’d like to sign a tune of praise for the very unsung Nathan Lane as F. Lee Bailey.
Georgia: Nathan Lane as F. Lee Bailey. He’s great.. Yeah, Nathan Lane, who knew he’d be in this?
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: I got so excited!
Karen: He’s almost unrecognizable, not only because of his wig, but because… I just believe it’s that guy.
Georgia: I do too, and F. Lee Bailey is such a noble character, it had to be played by someone excellent.
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: and Nathan Lane is a beloved actor perfect for that role.
Karen: Oh guys… if you’re not watching it, we’ve ruined it.
Georgia: If you’re not watching it… you’ve ruined yourself. You’ve ruined it for yourself.
*Karen giggling*
Karen: There’s nothing more we can ruin in your life.
Georgia: Mmm-mmm.
Karen: Um… how’s it going? Everything else alright?
Georgia: Uh… Everything’s good. I’m not murdered yet. Uh, I’m fucking… the Facebook group is like, near and dear to my heart at this point.
Karen: The Facebook Group is making me regret leaving Facebook.
Georgia: If you wanna sign up a fake account, fake name, I will not out you, but it is such a, such a pleasing place to go when I have insomnia and just talk… like, everyone is so fuckin’ cool. I comment, and I, and I post things, and I, I read everyone’s posts and it’s just like really fun. The discussions we get into, and the comments people make, everyone’s nice, there hasn’t been anything racist or mean yet. I haven’t had to kick one person out.
*Karen laughing*
Georgia: Which is like, shocking for Facebook!
Karen: I thought we were really big in the racist community.
*Georgia laughing*
Karen: Damnit!
Georgia: Well, we are. They just keep it quiet.
Karen: They’re… oh… yeah, they behave appropriately.
Georgia: Yeah. And there’s fif- this is our ninth episode and there’s already 1500 people in the Facebook group.
Karen: Fuck yeah, you guys! Thank you!
Georgia: It turns out everyone needed a place to talk about murder.
Karen: Well, it is fascinating.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: It truly is. Actually, somebody at work today started talking about H. H. Holmes. And...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Literally in my head I had to say like… “Teacher, don’t say anything, Karen, let her tell her story.”
Georgia: Don’t be a know-it-all.
Karen: Don’t, I-I-I like had to...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ...Press my lips together because all I wanted to do was be like “adsadjklfhajskfhg,” and like jump all over her!
Georgia: Don’t you wanna be like, murder is mine?!
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: Like, I’m the one who talks… you don’t get to talk about murder...
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: I talk about murder.
Karen: I think though that’s… that’s kind of a good lesson just in general… cause I think I’ve been that way about more than murder...
Georgia: Me too!
Karen: …all of my life. It’s such a hard thing...
Georgia: I’m a know it all!
Karen: But like, if someone brings it up themselves.
Georgia: Let them have it, murder doesn’t belong to you. Or whatever it is… doesn’t belong to you. I’m not telling you, I’m telling myself! ‘Cause this is… I totally agree.
Karen: Oh, that wasn’t to me?
*giggling*
Georgia: No, that was to ME in any conversation! Oh… mm-hmmm.
Karen: Mm-hmm…
Georgia: Not, OH yeah, well did you know that…?! You know, like…
Karen: It’s so hard.
Georgia: And then when you’re like, oh, well.. And then you bring up something that… that compares to it, you just sound like an asshole, unless you’re… you’re sincerely wanting to bring up another murder…
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: Instead of saying like… well this is how much I know about it. Which I do all of the time.
Karen: Yes. We could… this podcast could also go into the areas of etiquette, general etiquette.
Georgia: Well, I do it in this podcast too, of not wanting to speak over you like I just did
*Karen giggles*
Karen: Well, no but it’s… well, it’s fine with me, here, with you and I.
Georgia: Okay… well… Well, not wanting to speak over you, also not wanting to be like, “yeah, no I know that murder you’re about to talk about”
Karen: But it delights me when you do that, I think it’s hilarious!
Georgia: There was one you had that I, that I kept trying to add to, and kept telling myself, “just shut the fuck up,” in my head, cause it was so obnoxious.
Karen: But it’s hard… for me, it’s hard when you read a thing by yourself and you’re like…. “There was a man in Chicago during the world’s fair that built a… basically built a murder hotel,” and I’m just finding out now, and I read it with what I imagine other people read like, books when they go to college, I read it with the same enthusiasm.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ...and kind of like absorption, so then when somebody else starts talking about it, I want them to know that I know, like I want them...
Georgia: I know. To know that you’re cool!
Karen: I guess, yeah, and… yeah, like that I… I wanna like scream and grab each other’s shoulders.
Georgia: I know.
Karen: I want that feeling with people I don’t know.
Georgia: I do too and I want them to know I’m on the level with them and WE can have this conversation instead of like. And also like, I’ve been… like, don’t keep tell... You’re going to keep telling me about it and then you’re gonna find out I have a true crime podcast and you’re gonna be like, “why didn’t you say anything that you knew about this?” There’s actually a really good… the book The Devil in the White City.
Karen: Yes, that’s what we were talking about!
Georgia: Did you read that, have you read it?
Karen: I just did it…
*giggling*
Georgia: No, but that’s it!
Karen: I had to wait ‘til she was done and then kind of take a beat. I was really using it as like an exercise…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: And then someone goes, “I think they’re making a movie... I think there was a book…” And then I was like…
Georgia: Called Devil in the White City
Karen: Don’t say it the second the word’s out of their mouth, and then I was like… that’s right, it’s called Devil in the White City
*giggling*
Georgia: Yeah, but then if I was the girl who brought it up, I’d be like… “wait, so, this whole time you’ve been letting me mansplain something to you and you knew about it”
Karen: But also, sometimes mansplaining is just talking… sometimes we, sometimes people get to talk to us knowing something and we can accept that.
Georgia: Yeah, and we don’t have to know... we don’t have to tell them “well I KNOW.”
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: Don’t have to, “I KNOW everything.”
Karen: Yeah, we can be not in the position of victim or somebody that’s being oppressed. YOu can assume that person doesnt have the power to oppress you and you’re just being polite
Georgia: Yes.
Karen: and Letting them, letting them be a know-it-all is an okay thing to do.
Georgia: But then they’re never gonna get to know you!
*Karen laughing*
Georgia: Because you… ‘cause you didn’t tell them that you know shit.
Karen: That’s very true, but I’m also, this iis a work situation, where i can’t, I have to let me personality, personality out bit-by-bit because…
Georgia: Riiight.
Karen: It’s a lot.
Georgia: You can’t scream in someone’s face, YESSSSS, I LOVE MURDER
Karen: As my mom used to say “You’re too much,” and she meant it very literally
*Georgia giggling*
Georgia: Yeah. Well, we’re a lot! And that’s why we have a true crime podcast.
Karen: We’re a lot.
Georgia: A muuuurder podcast!
Karen: We could, Yeah… this podcast could literally go for four hours.
Georgia: Yeah, that’s why we’re friends! Because the first time we actually hung out on our own we had a FIVE hour lunch...
Karen: Yeah, we did
Georgia: …just talking.
Karen: And the whole time, I kept thinking, “am I the only one that wants to say here, is she just trapped?”
Georgia: Right *giggling*
Karen: But we, it was clear…
Georgia: It was.
Karen: ...that we were both voluntarily eating lunch for five hours
Georgia: Yeah, and the conversation flowed, it wasn’t one sided
Karen: That’s right.
Georgia: Um… I think
Karen: I think!
Georgia: Speaking of one sided...
Karen: We still have our doubts.
*Giggling*
Georgia: We are good, we are great. Anxiety is real.
*laughing*
Georgia: Speaking of one-sided and talking about a thing,
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: Do you wanna do your favorite murder?
Karen: I do.
Georgia: I think you’re first.
Karen: Do you want me to go first?
Georgia: Yeah, so we… tell me, you picked this.. You picked this, you told me this week’s theme in a way that I already knew that you knew what you were doing.
Karen: Yes. I what they call reverse engineered this week’s theme because I HAD to do this story, because one of our… now I’m afraid, uh, I guess I’ll say his first name and last initial because one of our listeners, uh... DM’d us, which I adore, he DM’d us like, so as not to embarrass, I think. But he was like, how could you have talked about the Exorcist and not talked about this?
Georgia: Riiight.
Karen: He sent me a link and all this stuff, and I wrote back in all caps HOLY SHIT HOW DID I MISS THIS? So that’s where mine started, so then when I um… talked to Georgia, I was like, can this week’s be like, hiding in plain sight, or murders that they were like, right there the whole time?
Georgia: Okay.
Karen: Kind of thing. Because… *scoffs* in the Exorcist, one of the biggest stories, and I swear, I looked at over five websites about my Exorcist cursed um, movie set that, which was my thing last week if you didn’t hear it. Um, but Brian B.
Georgia: Mmm-hmm
Karen: Our listener, sent us a DM because there was a guy in the Exorcist, and he was the guy that played the radiolie… radiologist… uh something’s wrong with my mouth…
Georgia: Words.
Karen: Radiologist’s assistant IN the scene we talked about that I said was so creepy where she was in that crazy machine getting like the MRI
Georgia: Yeah
Karen: Um, the guy that plays the assistant in that scene turned out to be a serial Killer.
Georgia: *gasps* NO.
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: Like a serial killer, serial killer?
Karen: A legit 6-victim, straight up...
*Georgia gasps*
Karen: ...New York in the 70s serial killer.
Georgia: That just reminded me of something when I gasped. Is that, there’s a thread on the Facebook group that every time I say HOLY SHIT, you have to take a shot
*Karen laughs*
Georgia: Or when I say NOOOOO or when I gasp. Like there’s certain things, and then when you say.. When you sing a word...
*Giggles*
Georgia: Like a thing, like *singing* “yes it isssss,” you have to take a shot.
*Both laughing*
Georgia: It’s pretty hilarious!
Karen: Oh NO!
Georgia: It’s very light-hearted, it’s not in a mean way at all;
Karen: Oh no, no, no, please.
Georgia: Okay.
Karen: But now I don’t wanna be self-conscious about it and, *singing* do it all the time, ‘cause I love when people are soooooo drunk they fall off their own couch.
*Georgia laughing*
Karen: Um… alright. So I…
Georgia: Kay.
Karen: When Brian B. sent us this, this very tasteful DM about a HUUUUGE thing I missed and I’m so bummed…
Georgia: Please don’t beat yourself up.
Karen: I won’t… I won’t entirely, but talk about like, wanting to be an expert and dropping the ball.
Georgia: Well, I’m… the first five websites that came up, they didn’t mention this!
Karen: They didn’t, they didn’t.
Georgia: So nobody knew.
Karen: And you would think they would.
Karen: Yeah, maybe it is like specialized knowledge or something.Um, maybe I just have to go to better websites first. Or...
Georgia: Or, you have to, I’ve been googling WEIRD shit lately- like the weird stuff.
Karen: The weird stuff.
Georgia: Not just like so and so murder, I’ve been googling like, deep down weird shit.
Karen: Have you gone Dark Web?
Georgia: I, I wish… I wish I could, I don’t know how to go Dark Web… but I want to!
Karen: Don’t do it, don’t even try it. I’m sure Dustin knows, let’s not...
Georgia: I’m SURE Dustin knows Dark Web. Look at how excited he looks!
*Karen laughing*
Georgia: He’s doing the thing when we talk about something, he’s like, “I know about this! I know about this!” He’s doing it.
Karen: That kind of, uh... Wait, do you actually like, like murder stuff like this… Dustin??
Dustin: Uh…. I’m not, I, uh, I… I think I’m more affected by it than you are.
Georgia: Ohhhhh.
Dustin: I’m, I’m not enthusiastic about it. It really makes my skin crawl.
Georgia: Okay, so you don’t get stoked and excited. You wouldn’t be at a party with us and stick around our conversation?
Karen: You’d walk away probably.
Dustin: I… Y-- I… I’d have nothing I could, Yeah. Probably.
Georgia: Oh my God, I never even thought to ask that.
Karen: What a beautiful thing that you still come here and record this with us
Georgia: Thanks, Dustin! And gave us a podcast to begin with!
Karen: It turns out those head-those headphones, he’s just blasting Radiohead the whole time.
*giggling*
Georgia: It’s just… ahh… it’s just, yeah.
Karen: He has no idea what we’re saying.
Georgia: Radiohead, I love it.
*laughing*
Karen: Okay, so here’s the, here’s the um… here’s the research part… and uh, and… I hope I do this justice, but I’m not going to because I basically did, only part of my homework, but essentially this is it in a nutshell.
Georgia: I’m excited.
Karen: The guy’s name was Paul Bateson, and he was in real-life, a 38-year-old x-ray tech...
Georgia: Hmm
Karen: ...in NYU med center where they shot that scene. Oh, it’s called an arteriogram, is what she’s getting in that scene, which is like, a crazy machine that like, it’s like...a, it looks like… a... Not a centrifuge, but the thing where it spins you in...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ...all those different directions.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Very upsetting and weird noises, so um, I guess when, the probably, when they went to like, shoot, go location scout, he was there, they cast him cause he already worked there and knew how to work the machine
Georgia: The… legit already
Karen: Right, and what I love is, the link that Brian B. sent us, the picture that comes up with this article, he looks so creepy, he looks like any dude in the 70s like kind of forward, his hair’s going forward. Kind of sandy blonde, goatee, but his eyes are like, his eyes are drooping like they’re melting.
Georgia: So like he... you’re like, oh what a great casting job that they hired this actor. And it’s like, nope, he’s really, this is what he looks like and that’s why they hired him for this freaking movie.
Karen: Yeah… and… and… I don’t know. I don’t know if… that’s a little woo-woo to think that like, his secret life was the reason that scene was so creepy, and I actually don’t… this was before. So these murders happened later in the 70s, so I think he, he did that first.
Georgia: Okay.
Karen: Oh, no, sorry, the murders started in 1973, so that was…
Georgia: So he was like on-sc-- on-camera, having murdered someone?
Karen: I think so!
*Georgia Gasps*
Karen: I… Shit, I would have to look up… the movie came out in ‘73 and was… I... I’m the one that did this…
Georgia: No, you’re good, just keep…
Karen: ...thing last week.
Georgia: pretend like you know what you’re talking about.
Karen: I’m pretty sure i know what I’m talking about.
Georgia: Just own it.
*giggling*
Karen: Yeah, I think he murdered...
Georgia: He must’ve murdered before.
Karen: Directly… I think he was doing it during, and then ended up getting caught after. Cause it was over a period of time. So, essentially what happened is… um… he uh, so these people started going missing, OR there was like murder scenes, so the first one was Ron-a man named Ronald Cabo. He lived in the West Village, and um, he was stabbed to death on his sofa and then his apartment was set on fire.
Georgia: Holy SHIT.
Karen: He was 29 years old
Georgia: HOLY SHIT. Someone take a shot.
Karen: Holy shit, right?
Georgia: Take a shot.
Karen: ‘Cause he’s so young. And four days later… So they just think it’s standard murder in New York City
Georgia: Yeah. Yeah.
Karen: In 1973. Four days later, a man named Donald McNiven, who’s 40 years old, and a guy named John *British accent* P. W. Beardsley, aged 53, were both found in Donald’s apartment… um, on Verrick Street, they both lived in the building, but they were in Donald’s apartment…
Georgia: Mm-hmm.
Karen: And again, uh... The apartment had been set on fire. And, um, Beardsley was actually on the social register in New York and Philadelphia, so he was like, some fancy... He had been a Harvard grad.
Georgia: Wow.
Karen: So, um… and they had no idea, they, it just looked like another bad stabbing murder, I think. Beardsley was the one stabbed and McNibben- uh, McNiven, was bludgeoned.
Georgia: Did they… and it was four days later?
Karen: Four days later.
Georgia: Did they connect the two immediately, I wonder?
Karen: No, not at all.
Georgia: How do you not connect two stabbing-and-fires?
Karen: Becau-- Well, maybe they, they might’ve like noted it but…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: But, in the 70s in New York City…
Georgia: Yeeeeah.
Karen: I think there’s several murders a day…
Georgia: And they’re not sharing like precinct-to-precinct murders
Karen: Right. Right. Um… two weeks later, the body of Robin Ferrero was found floating in the Hudson River and he had been missing for five weeks.
Georgia: Oh my goodness.
Karen: And his… he was still in a leather jacket. He was really, um… decomposed, but he had a leather jacket on. And then, uh, nine days after that, um… two gay men, uh… were murdered, uh, they, I think they think they were roommates, and their dog, their pet poodle
Georgia: NOOOOOO!
Karen: Yes. Um… and from the stuff that was in the apartment at that murder is when they started putting together, this is... These are all people that have something to do with the leather community.
Georgia: Okay, I was gonna say that… that would make sense.
Karen: Yeah, the leather jacket started the… and, and that first guy Robert Ferrero, oh sorry, Ronald Cabo, the picture that they have up of him, he’s really young and he’s wearing a leather jacket. So I’m sure at the time it’s was like, oh that’s just a fashion choice, or whatever.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: But then, person after person, they’re probably finding different things, and so, by the end… um… uh, they, they got one of the jackets, they got the tag and they found, it was, belonged to a store in the West Village that was completely an S&M store.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: S&M clothing and… *giggles* supplies.
Georgia: Leather, so like, a leather gay boys, killing.
Karen: Yes. And so, um… that, that’s when they start to realize, oh this is… but once again, it’s just like the freeway murders in LA.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: Whether it’s a gay community thing, or any disenfranchised, whether it’s prostitutes.
Georgia: Totally.
Karen: The cops are like… ehhhh.
Georgia: Who cares?
Karen: No one cares and we’re not gonna get pressure from city hall.
Georgia: I mean, I’m sure they could… if it’s someone in the community, and everyone is... who’s being killed is in that community, you ask- you talk to the rest of the people in that community and they’re like, “this guy’s creepy and has gone home with all of these men”
Karen: Right.
Georgia: It’s pretty simple… No it’s not, I mean, I’m sure it’s not that simple, but it seems like.
Karen: Not that simple, but it’s the thing of like, what people decide to value.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: So people, if the people in power don’t value your life, or what you do in the community, they actually think you’re gross...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ...Or bad, or judge you morally, then they won’t try to help you, or they won’t feel any, you know, burning desire to find your killer.
Georgia: Well, they say… this is what they say and I’ve totally. So they say you’re living a high-risk lifestyle already.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: Are you living a high risk lifestyle, well then… are you a prostitute, are you a drug addict? Are you… living, you know, in a gay community where... you’re around a lot of strange men a lot?
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: That’s a high risk lifestyle and they care less about you.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: Because they think you’re kind… you’re... Living a high risk lifestyle means you kind of deserved it.
Karen: It’s.. You brought it on yourself.
Georgia: I’m not saying, I’M not saying I think that that.
Karen: Of course not.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: But it’s an excuse, I’m sure, when cops see… you know, it’s New York City in the 70s
*Georgia scoffs*
Georgia: Geez.
Karen: They saw, probably 20 murders a day.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: So you’re trying to somehow prioritize these things, or, or, you can’t put your heart and soul into every single thing that comes across your desk.
Georgia: Totally.
Karen: But, so, so, I’m sure it got very easy to start marginalizing the deaths of these people or to not, you know…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Not put these things together.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: So anyway, they start… body parts start washing up…
*Georgia gasps*
Karen: ...on the shore of the Hudson River. So there’s, like, apparently there’s a gay cruising spot, um... by the Hudson River piers
Georgia: Mm-hmm.
Karen: And that’s where, um... different body parts wrapped in garbage bags
Georgia: Oh my god
Karen: Start showing up. And so they, putting all this together, um… they started calling the whole case “The Fag in the Bag...
Georgia: OH WOWWWWW
Karen: ...Killer” And so you can tell by that….
Georgia: *scoffs* Yeah…
Karen: Obviously, there’s not… there’s not a lot of sensitivity back then anyway…
Georgia: No…
Karen: But that’s basically their attitude about all of the stuff that’s going on…
Georgia: Wow…
Karen: Um... so, then a drag performer… they said drag performer in this article, but let’s call her a drag queen, I bet she was a Queen.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Uh, and her name was Toni Lee. And she was strangled in her apartment in the West Village, and the Village Voice wrote a big article about it, because she was FAMOUS...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: A lot of people knew her. And that’s when they started to really put together, they knew for a fact that after hours, and after like the normal bars, she would go to leather bars.
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: And so, that’s when they, you know, were like, we’re really on to something with this like leather theory.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: And then a man named Addison Verrill, who’s 36, and he was the film critic for Variety magazine...
*Georgia gasps*
Karen: He was found stabbed and bludgeoned, uh, stabbed and bludgeoned with a cast iron skillet in his apartment, and that’s...
Georgia: It’s so weird that they were all in their own apartments, meaning that this person was allowed to come in...
Karen: Yes, that’s right.
Georgia: That’s what scares me the most, it’s like, yeah I know this person, I see him around my scene.
Karen: Yeah, it’s pickup stuff.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: It’s like, they’re going to sex bars, they’re going to leather bars, or just, you know, the 70s, this was like the “Looking for Mr. Goodbar Era.”
Georgia: Totally.
Karen: Where everybody was like, it was like, post-hippy shit, where people were like, yeah I’m sexually liberated.
Georgia: It was pre, pre-AIDS epidemic, so...
Karen: Yes. Yeah, where it was kind of like, yeah, everybody wants to have sex, let’s do this thing.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: There was a lot of trust, um… and especially with… they were… in this thing I was reading about, it was like, leather community, there was lots of you know, like leather daddies and like, really big muscle-y men...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: So they don’t think anyone’s gonna hurt them.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: They’re, they’re, you know, in charge. It’s very overblown, presentational masculinity.
Georgia: It’s less of a risk than a woman going home with a man. Because a man can defend himself supposedly against another man.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: One would think.
Karen: Exactly. And also, they’re like… that’s part of the play. Which I’m sure is the other thing, the cops were like… you know, this is a little something that got out of hand.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Type of thing.
Georgia: Right, oh right.
Karen: That you were into anyway.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: Blame, blame, blame.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: So, this um… this journalist named Arthur Bell wrote this big article after Addison Verrill, after the story came out that he was stabbed, because the whole, the whole story about Addison Verrill was white-washed. They didn’t talk about him being gay. They were, it was very like, a terrible murder, but they made it sound like a passing thing.
Georgia: Like a random murder.
Karen: And Arthur Bell was like… there’s a serious serial killer in our community and we have to start giving a shit, and if nobody’s going to give a shit about somebody who’s famous…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Like, you know, like this is our chance or whatever, so he wrote a big, huge article for the Village Voice about um… you know, that people needed to start, like, real police work needed to start going into this because people were very afraid.
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: And then he got a phone call.
Georgia: No.
Karen: Arthur Bell, this journalist, he gets a phone call from a man who tells him, “I’m the guy that killed Addison Verrill, and we were together, I met him at a br, we went back to his apartment, and while we were, like, after we had sex, I had an epiphany, and I realized this was not a reciprocal relationship, he didn’t love me, he didn’t wanna be my boyfriend, he didn’t wanna get married, and um… I wasn’t getting anything I wanted. And that’s why I killed him.” And he tells him a bunch of specifics, including that there was Crisco all over the scene, uh, of the crime, which was a very common lubricant that people used back then...
Georgia: Ooooohhhh… Oi.
Karen: But that had not been released to the press in any way.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: So, uh... Arthur Bell calls the cops and says, “I just got this phone call that was crazy, I figured I should tell you.” And he starts telling them these details that no one else knows besides the cops, and the cops know this is the real guy.
Georgia: Holy Crap.
Karen: So, he talked to the real killer, which is insane. So then, Arthur gets a call from a guy named Richard Ryan, who said he also knew who the killer was. Because he had, um, met him and talked to him, and this guy had basically told him… I think he said he met him at AA or something…
Georgia: Uh-huh.
Karen: And he basically had been trying to get sober, and uh… had admitted to him that like he had killed Addison Verrill.
Georgia: Wooow…
Karen: And so…
Georgia: But that’s the only one he admitted to killing.
Karen: That’s the only… yes.
Georgia: Okay.
Karen: So he, this, so Arthur Bell takes that information, goes to the cops, gives them the name, and that’s when they go and find Paul Bateson and, after they arrested Bateson, he was in Rikers, and apparently he was bragging to everybody in there, that he not only killed Addison Verrill, but he was killing, quote like “a bunch of gay guys just for fun because he was bored…”
Georgia: Holy Shit.
Karen: And so then…
Georgia: Just for fun cause he was bored?
Karen: Yeah, he’s just trying to impress people but obviously he was...
Georgia: Go bowling dude.
*giggling*
Karen: ...he was cutting people up, wrapping their parts in bags, and dumping them in the river...
Georgia: Oh my GOOOOOD!
Karen: So they think he was actually…
Georgia: Dustin…
Karen: They think he’s responsible for way more murders…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: But he would, he only, he only plead guilty to the Addison Verrill murder, got 20 years, and he got out in 2004.
Georgia: 20 YEARS for… just…
Karen: For stabbing, bludgeoning murder…
Georgia: JUST because you got sad that someone didn’t love you? Dude.
Karen: Who? Oh, you mean the murderer?
Georgia: Yeah… No, yeah, you got bummed that Addison didn’t love you.
Karen: Well, but you know this… I mean...
Georgia: I know…
Karen: He’s psychotic or… you know…
Georgia: Yeah, but it’s so weird… like… so an un… what’s the word I’m looking at? It’s not like they got in a fight. He just killed him and he only gets 20 years…
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: That bothers me so much.
Karen: Well he’s CRAAAAZY. He clearly can’t, you know…
Georgia: I know…
Karen: What’s, he gonna have another relationship?
Georgia: I just hate…
Karen: ...and then how is he going to deal with that disappointment?
Georgia: I hate that there are people like that out there…
Karen: Yeah there’s lots of them.
Georgia: I know.
Karen: Um, so, but here’s the interesting thing… So William Friedkin hears about this…
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: Finds out that an extra in his movie was a serial killer, goes to Rikers and starts interviewing him and then decides, and in the meantime, somebody else, I don’t have the author’s name, wrote uh.. A book called Cruising…
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: ...which was about a serial killer in the 70s leather scene...
Georgia: Hmm.
Karen: In New York City.
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: And so Friedkin goes and talks to Paul Bateson and then decides he’s gonna direct the movie.
Georgia: No waaaaay.
Karen: And so there’s a movie called Cruising starring Al Pacino
*Georgia gasps*
Karen: About a cop that’s going undercover in the New York City leather scene to find a serial killer…
Georgia: Did you watch it?
Karen: I have not seen it.
Georgia: I wonder if it’s easy to find or if it’s one of those like…
Karen: I think it is, well it’s kind of infamous because… it’s incredibly… it’s incredibly, it’s very homophobic. It’s very bad.
Georgia: Ohhhh... yeah.
Karen: It basically says, all these people are deviants without morals and would kill you...
Georgia: Right.
Karen: And would kill anybody and there’s a lot of bad stuff in it. And when um... the gay community found out that they were shooting this movie in New York City, they all… it basically galvanized the Gay Rights Movement, and they would go down and like, protest the shooting, the… while they were filming...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: So they would go down with whistles, they were, they were holding up like mirrors…
Georgia: That’s awesome.
Karen: And making light go into the scenes or whatever.
Georgia: That’s great.
Karen: But they ended up shooting it anyway, they got it done. And when it came out, everyone was like, this is the worst...
*Georgia scoffs*
Karen: You know like, up until that point...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ...most gay men in film were like, oh you’re the kooky butler...
Georgia: Right.
Karen: ...that has no real life or personality.
Georgia: And they don’t actually say you’re gay, they just imply it.
Karen: You’re just a joke.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: You’re just a joke. And now you’re not just… now you’re... When you’re not a joke, you’re a murderer.
Georgia: Who deserve… and a murder victim who kind of deserves it.
Karen: You’re a victim... Exactly. And Everything about your life lacks all morals and you’re just, you’re basically… yeah.
Georgia: How much more real would that whole story be if… if the person, the murderer, it had nothing to do with the fact that he was gay, he’s just a fucking psychopathic murdererer?
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: You know?
Karen: Yeah. But I mean… yeah, it’s just… the whole thing is super awful. There’s a great movie called The Celluloid Cloth and it’s a documentary about uh… you know, like gay people in Hollywood and um… and all the, the treatment of them...
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: And basically the way they’ve been presented and seen.
Georgia: That sounds cool.
Karen: It’s pretty fascinating. And they talk about Cruising. It’s pretty good. I think that’s it. I had something else, but...
Georgia: Sorry, my cats are attacking each other next to you… that’s amazing.
Karen: That’s it.
Georgia: So… tell me his name again… I wanna go…
Karen: Paul Bateson is his name.
Georgia: I wanna go back and see that scene where there’s a fucking… real-life serial killer!
Karen: I know… It’s really good. It’s a very, very creepy scene. Now, I should’ve watched… I just didn’t have time to watch Cruising.
Georgia: I know…
Karen: But I also know, it’s incredibly depressing
Georgia: There’s no point in you watching that.
Karen: And I also read reviews of it and apparently it’s not very cohesive and it was initially um… rated X, so they had to pull out all these scenes ‘cause there’s all this like, you know, kind of intensive leather scenes…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: And shit. And the NPAA, or whatever they’re called, would not let William Friedkin… basically, when he had to edit it, it came out way shorter and almost nonsensical.
Georgia: Oh my Godddd.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: And people always talk about wanting to go back in time, which I totally fucking do. But the 70s, even the 70s, the 80s, the 90s were so racist and homophobic and fucking sexist. Would you really wanna go back?
Karen: It’s crazy. I mean, that’s the thing it’s… the more we talk about things like this, it just becomes this ike humanist thing to me, where like, we have to… people have to… I mean, separate from mentally ill people...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ...who just like have to murder or whatever… but it’s the thing of like, we have to look at each other as human beings…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: …it’s crazy the… you know what I mean, when you always wanna go… oh those people...
Georgia: Yeah…
Karen: They get what they deserve. And it’s like, are fucking crazy!
Georgia: Yeah!
Karen: But if something happens to you, you don’t deserve it?
Georgia: Yeah, someone could… you and I could be in a category that someone, a lot of people would say that about. For whatever reason... because we’re women, because we live in Los Angeles… you know, whatever the reason.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: So you know, people could say that about you, so why would you say that about other people?
Karen: Right… it’s just, I don’t… it’s just lame… it’s just… I don’t know…
*giggling*
Karen: I don’t know
Georgia: It’s…
Karen: At the end of all these stories, I’m always like… *whiny* ehhhhh.
Georgia: *whiny* It’s lame…
Karen: I’m sorry I brought it up…
*Georgia laughing*
Georgia: I’m sorry I brought it up?
Karen: Yeah…
Georgia: It’s called My Favorite Murder: I’m Sorry I Brought It Up
Karen: I’m sorry I brought it up…
Georgia: Nottttt
Karen: Yeah, there’s something fascinating to the idea that there’s just like, a person in a horror movie that’s also living, IS walking the walk.
Georgia: I wonder if he, in his, I wonder if he in his twisted brain was like laughing at the irony of it too.
Karen: I know, I wonder. He’s apparently a very bad alcoholic too. So he claims he doesn’t remember.
Georgia: So is he… he’s still alive and he’s out!
Karen: Yeah.. oh yeah. I think he’s died since. He got out in 2004, he was living in upstate New York.
Georgia: What did he do after?! Just chill and make breakfa… did he make breakfast for himself every day?
Karen: Yeah… he just, you know what, he went down to the community center *giggling*
Georgia: That’s so crazy!
Karen: He loved to help with the spaghetti dinner every month...
*Georgia laughing*
Georgia: Isn’t it crazy that you only have to go door-to-door and let your community know if you’re a pedophile, but not if you’re a convicted murderer?
Karen: SERIAL killer!
Georgia: A convicted serial murderer?!
Karen: Oh, well he wasn’t convicted for all of them, though so yeah… just a killer.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: Just a killer.
Georgia: So you don’t have to let them know that unless you fondle children.
Karen: Right.
Georgia: I wanna know if someone next to me, next door to me is… no I don’t! Do I? No…
Karen: Ehh… ehhhhhh, you know, there’s pros and cons.
Georgia: There is pros and cons.
Karen: It’d be hard to sleep.
Georgia: You know, it’d be better is if just, if sentencing were... a little more…
Karen: Just a little more…
Georgia: Harsh.
Karen: Harsher for the people who will take you out.
Georgia: It’s not… harsh isn’t the word. Fitting is the word.
Karen: Yeah, that’s right.
Georgia: Oh Jesus.
Karen: That’s right. Hey, what’s your murder, Georgia?
Georgia: Heyyy, okay, so hiding in plain sight… when you said that to me, I was like...ummm okay. I didn’t really get it.
*giggling*
Georgia: No, I was excited about it, cause I was like... but then I was like... so you mean like serial killers who have day jobs? Like I didn’t really understand it.
Karen: But yeah, that’s kind of what I meant.
Georgia: Okay yeah, and you said yes so I was like… what does that mean to me? Hiding in plain sight? And to me, that meant being… and I’m fascinated by this and how disgusting it is… uh… hiding in plain sight is being a child who kills someone.
Karen:*whispering* Oh good one!
Georgia: Cause that’s plain sight… plain sight is being a child
Karen: That’s right
Georgia: And this one is kind of… so I have two similar, but very different child murderers that I’ve always thought about ‘cause they’re so fucked up. And the first one is… uh, the murderer is Josh Phillips
Karen: Okay.
Georgia: And he killed Maddie Clifton. So do you know this one? No?
Karen: I think?
Georgia: This one is a kind of well-known one but it’s interesting because recently, some new information came out about it. So basically, in… this kid Josh Phillips was born in 1984. Um… he’s from Jacksonville, Florida and in uhhh... July 1999, he was convicted of murdering his 8-year-old neighbor, Maddie Clifton. He murdered her in November ‘98. He was 14 years old and she was 9 years old. And what happened was… uh... Maddie disappeared, and everyone… the whole community started looking for her and couldn’t find her and then, um…
Karen:*disgusted noise*
Georgia: The search ended a week after the disappearance when Josh Phillips’ mother went to clean up Josh’s room and thought his water bed was leaking…
Karen:*groans*
Georgia: Which a) don’t get your kid a waterbed, b) it’s not leaking
Karen: Yeah… wha… You’re not like a bachelor.
Georgia: Yeah… what is that?: Way to give your kid fucking back problems AND send them to jail at the same time, because what’s more comfortable? The water bed or the jail mattress? I don’t know.
*giggling*
Karen: So it’s the mother’s fault.
Georgia: It’s...Melissa, you needed to get this together. Upon further examination, she discovered that it was Maddie’s body hidden inside… hidden like underneath the bed. And she… and fucking kudos to her, ran outside, across the street, there was a police, and was like.. Hey... you know like some parents, I don’t know if they would do that immediately. Or they would like wait until he came home and talk… and like, what the fuck? And then call the police. She was like… get the fuck... freaked out.
Karen: Yes, oh, that is amazing.
Georgia: So Josh was arrested at school that day and he was held in a maximum security... So here’s what’s so fucked up about it… uh… *disgusted scoff* he was… as a 14 year old, he was tried as an adult and convicted to... And sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. Like… adult killers who kill more people in a more fucked up way and sexually assault them… are not tried, are not convicted.. errr, are not given such a harsh sentence.
Karen: Right.
Georgia: And so according to josh, what happened is that Maddie came next door to play with him, um... and despite the fact that Josh wasn’t allowed to have people over when his parents weren’t home, he let her in anyways. The two were playing… according to him, the two were playing baseball outside. Maddie threw the ball.. Or Josh threw the ball and um… it struck Maddie in the hea- in the eye, causing her to start bleeding. And she started to scream, and Josh freaks out um… ‘cause his father is abusive, has a temper, and if he finds out that Maddie’s there, the fact that she’s screaming and got hurt at his house, he’s gonna be in a shit ton of trouble… including being abused.
Karen: *groans*
Georgia: So he takes her to his room… I don’t know if I should like even go into the details because I know people who are listening have children and I don’t wanna…
Karen: Well, if you have children and you… are listening to a murder podcast, but you’re gonna get sensitive…
Georgia: Yeah...
Karen: Then, uh... I would go forward uh… one minute and 30 seconds…
Georgia: Thank you. Basically, basically, she died from stabbing… uh… and strangulation and clubbing with a baseball bat… Overkill. Took her pants off, but didn’t… but she wasn’t… um… molested, which is odd. Also, I was reading something on Reddit that said that she didn’t have any… he said he dragged her inside the house, but there wasn’t any dirt or sticks or anything on her… on her body, on her clothes, which would indicate that that had happened. So we don’t realllly know for sure… and that’s a really… that’s... I mean… he tries to get off easy by saying he hit her in the head, but then he goes on to over… and tells how he killed her. So it’s not like he was… if he was lying about one of them, why wouldn’t he lie about both of them?
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: So he’s… it’s… he’s never gonna be free. She was nude from the waist down, but it didn’t seem… And so… the murder seems to be motivated by his fear of his abusive father… *scoffs* it’s just so fucked up!
Karen: Do they know that’s true or could that be another thing he could’ve been making up?
Georgia: Yeah, we don’t know that either. Or even that maybe the… maybe the par…’cause I… I watched a couple episodes of… of, you know true crime shows where the parents get interviewed, and maybe that was something THEY made up even to say… like, oh no, the father was abusive and he was scared of him… like… let’s give him an out.
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: So we don’t know if that was true or not… Um…
Karen: Well the thing… I think you’re right, him… especially the stabbing part...
Georgia: Yeah…
Karen: The stabbing is such a furious and personal thing…
Georgia: He also choked her for fifteen minutes…
Karen: Oh… yeah…
Georgia: That is a loooo… and it’s, it’s very hard to choke someone to death. I think we all… if you’re into true crime, you know this…
Karen: Yep.
Georgia: It takes a lot longer and a lot more force than you…
Karen: And that’s when you’re an adult!
Georgia: That’s when you’re an adult!
Karen: Yeah
Georgia: But she’s also 8 or 9, so she’s probably a little more fragile. She’s.. I mean, the thing that fucks me up about this is that… she’s this little… tomboy girl… and she reminds me of me as a kid who wanted to hang out with the older boys and play with them and be… one of the guys. There’s a video… there’s a home video he made… that the boy made of her… of this little girl Maddie and her sister playing with their new puppy. So like… she trusted this kid next door.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: She wanted to come over and was bugging him to play with her.
Karen: yeah.
Georgia: And as a 14… as a 14-year-old…
Karen: Did he have like a history of... anything?
Georgia: Not… no…
Karen: Like, mental stuff or… anything?
Georgia: No… no mental stuff. The dad died in a car accident eventually. Okay, so, in 2002… 12, recently, the Supreme Court ruled that automatic life without paroles sentences for juveniles is unconstitutional.
Karen: Hmm…
Georgia: And that ruling entitles Phillips to a re-sentencing hearing. Also… he’s super hot now…. Whatever, that’s just a beside the point.
Karen: But let’s just put it out there…
Georgia: Let’s just let everyone know that.
Karen: Let’s just get people on Tinder aware
Georgia: Yeah… so… and there’s not a ton of conversation about this murder, like on Reddit, or anything like that, so I just thought it was interesting.
Karen: I do think it’s… I… I agree that you shouldn’t… that life without parole for a 14-year-old is insane… even though I get it. He… I mean that stabbing a little girl to death and strangling…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Something happened to that boy.
Georgia: Yes.
Karen: Something very bad happened to that boy, whether it’s uh… a psychotic break, whether it was something… he was terribly abused… but like
Georgia: Well there was… there was an interesting conversation in Reddit in like the one little bit I was able to find… where this… this pers… this commenter was saying, you know, when I was a kid, my dad was abusive and… all you wanted to do was not get in trouble… that… You didn’t think about what would happen in the future if you got caught hiding whatever it was that you were in trouble… getting in trouble meant the whole family would be… terrorized.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: So you do whatever you can to not get in trouble that moment. And it kind of made sense in a way that was like… she’s not dying from this way she’s not dying… I need to kill her at this point and get it over with because I’m going to get in trouble for having had someone over. Which is, you know, maybe he was a little… maybe he was developmentally delayed, but 14 year old… 14 seems too old to think that killing someone was an okay solution to that.
Karen: Yes. For sure. Also, I feel like… hitting… hitting someone in the head and being afraid... and this is... This is just theory obviously…
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: He would just hit her in the head a bunch more times.
Georgia: Right. Why not just smack her in the head with the baseball bat?
Karen: It’s… *groans* the other part just gets so v-violent, up close, crazy bloody. I mean, like… oh my god.
Georgia: Yeah, almost like… wanting to see what hap- what happens.
Karen: Well, the pa- and the pants down thing is not good.
Georgia: The pants down thing is a very… a very… it’s sexual no matter what.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: So even if you didn’t touch her, it’s sexual.
Karen: Yes. And stabbing is sexual in that… you know, in that… psychosexual way.
Georgia: Yeah… totally. Strangling too… I mean.
Karen: Oiiiii *groans*
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Oh man.
Georgia: I mean, and when you strangle someone… you… for the most part, have to look at them in the face.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: If you can fucking do that, you got some major issues beyond you being scared you’re gonna get a belt whipping from your dad.
Karen: Yeah. Yeah. And also… I mean, people always says this, but I’ll just say it anyway… There’s... You can hear the chorus of people who were abused by terrible parents, who are like… I would never kill anybody.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: So it’s not A + B, like I think…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ...That that psychiatric element absolutely has to be there.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ‘Cause here’s the other thing too… you’re right. A mother who would immediately run across the street… like, obviously it’s insane finding a dead body under your son’s bed.
Georgia: Yeah…
Karen: But the immed- she KNEW.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: She KNEW he did it. Like it wasn’t… I don’t know. She didn’t go, let’s let the cops tell us what happened.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: She went… you have to go get my son right now.
Georgia: Her first… her first thought was for the girl… the little girl. And her… and her family who was waiting to find where she was and not for her kid or, or for the… for the dad who, you know… ‘cause if you find the body, someone in the house did it. You might not know it’s your son.
Karen: Right. Right.
Georgia: Her first thought was… I found the girl.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: She’s clearly the victim, not my son.
Karen: That’s amazing…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: That’s...
Georgia: That’s fucked up. There’s another one too, but maybe I don’t need to get into it…
Karen: Do it! Do it!
Georgia: It’s just Eric Smith, the.. the red... Like the little red head…
Karen: Oh YEAHHHH.
Georgia: …Kid.
Karen: He killed his parents?!
Georgia: No. Okay, so, Eric Smith, born 1980, um… he murdered four-year-old Derek Robie, on August 2, 1993. This was in… Stuben County, New York? So Eric had… Eric, unlike Josh, had been diagnosed by a defense uh… psychiatrist with intermittent explosive disorder, which is a mental disorder causing individuals to act out violently and unpredictably. Um… he was a loner, he was tormented by bullies, you know… he had… he was like a nerdy red head. You look at him as a kid in court, especially, there are these videos of him in court, and he’s just this… he… you can tell he’s troubled just by looking at him.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: You can tell he’d been bullied, you can tell he didn’t like himself. And he basically said he took… he took his anger out on… on this little kid, this sweet little Derek Robie who was riding his bike to summer camp… um… and… let’s see. Eric was riding his bike to summer camp and four-year-old Derek was walking alone to the same camp. They saw each other, he lured him into the nearby woods and then Smith like… overkilled the shit out of him.
*Karen groans*
Georgia: Like, so this was on purpo… Like, you know, it’s... it’s such a weird thing like… where these two different things where this kid said he had to do it because he hit her in the head and his dad was gonna find out. This kid just straight up wanted to murder someone.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: And I remember hearing this this about.. In one of the many fuckin’ true crime shows I watch that he, that… that… uh, Eric took a banana out of his lunch and smashed it into the little kid’s face, and later that night, the aunt or someone was babysitting him and got a banana out, and the kid freaked out, and I think that’s how they figured out who it was. The kid freaked out over the banana.
Karen: Wooooow.
Georgia: So… so basically uh… he, Smith said that he’d been bullied by older children in high school and also by his father and sister, and he confessed that he took his rage out on Robie, but was worried that Robie would tell, so he killed him.
*Karen groans*
Georgia: It’s very odd.
Karen: How old was he when he did it?
Georgia: So this kid was.... Um… Eric was… do do do… when was it? I think he was 14 as well.
Karen: Oh wow. I just remember looking at pictures of him…
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: Oh… you know why? Cause when I was doing uh… those two boys who killed their dad
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: His picture came up all the time
Georgia: Yeah
Karen:… and he looks SO young. He looks, he’s in a blazer.
Georgia: He doesn’t look 13, he looks like he could be… 11 or 12…
Karen: He looks like he’s 9.
Georgia: Yeah, or 9.
Karen: And he’s got those ears that stick out.
Georgia: Big ol’ ears. And if you look at him now, too, ‘cause there’s some interviews with… there’s some jailhouse interviews with him now… he’s just so apologetic to the family. He… says, “I wish I could take the kid’s place.” Like he’s very, very...
*Karen groans*
Georgia: ...Remorseful about it. But even now he looks… he looks like um… Remember the redheaded guy in The Burbs? Who lived…
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: ...who was one of the haunted that lived in the house? He looks like him now… it’s just like, he doesn’t look… Which is… I-I shouldn’t judge someone by the way that they look… but you know.
Karen: Well, I mean, that’s why people get bullied. If you look different.
Georgia: Yeah. Definitiely.
Karen: It’s… *groans*
Georgia: Well, so he’s been apologizing through… in prison. This other kid, Josh, um… he has since gone on to… he got a degree in pa… in being a paralegal, and he’s been working as a paralegal helping other inmates with their appeals. So both of these people have like… have gone on to try to make amends for their… their murder. Did they deserve to be in prison forever? And I’m not… I’m not asking like they don’t. I fucking don’t know.
Karen: Right. They really bring… well, it makes you come way off the like… let ‘em all fry…
Georgia: Right.
Karen: Which is… I-I like to feel that way just ‘cause it’s very comfortable...
Georgia: Yeah...
Karen: …And like a simple solution
Georgia: But it’s the same reason that I don’t… I still can’t give anyone a definite answer about the death penalty.
Karen: Right.
Georgia: I just couldn’t give anyone an answer.
Karen: Right.
Georgia: Because I don’t fucking know. There’s so many different circumstances…
Karen: I know, it’s true. It’s… it’s so… It’s much more complex than one thing or the other…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: And it’s case by case. But, I mean… yeah… And it’s difficult because I understand people saying like it’s wrong to kill other… revenge is wrong… and like one wrong doesn’t make a… two wrongs don’t make a right.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: I agree, I AGREE with all of it.
Georgia: But then you hear a story about a dad murdering his child’s molester and you’re like… yeah, good.
Karen: 100%!
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Or like you hear about repeat molesters.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Um… that kind of thing. Those priests…
*Georgia scoffs*
Karen: That have molested 600 children.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: Kill them immediately!
Georgia: Immediately!
Karen: I mean, I honestly feel that way.
Georgia: I know.
Karen: It’s just like… what good are you? You clearly don’t… this is what you’re going to do.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: And what life… you have ruined 600 lives...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: If not more.
Georgia: But then you hear… well, he was molested when he was a kid, constantly.
Karen: And maybe if his molester had just been taken out…
Georgia: Right.
Karen: …with a single bullet.
*both giggling*
Georgia: I mean… it’s so com- this is why we have this podcast is because we could talk about this for hours and hours, which is what we’re gonna do.
Karen: Yeah. I mean it’s… it’s so rough. And also, that kid... I mean… I’ve never had explosive anger, but I understand like… Getting in… especially if you do drugs...
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: Like, when I used to be on speed, I took diet pills for a long time.
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: Which, yes I lost 30 pounds in one month, but…
*Georgia laughs*
Georgia: 30 POUNDS IN ONE MONTH?
Karen: Yes....
*Georgia gasps*
Karen: I had friends who were like… are you okay?
Georgia: Yeahhhh
Karen: And I was like… yeahhhhh alkl;’ajssda;fj;laf
Georgia: I’M THE BEST
Karen: When I was just like fucking and smoking…
Georgia: Right.
Karen: …and not.. Breathing.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: But you do have that thing where… there’s the weirdest feeling that’s so separate when you have like a rage explosion, or like… a… like when you get onto that track and you can't get back off of it.
Georgia: It’s like a panic… like when you have a panic attack.
Karen: Exactly. It’s like your brain is having a reaction separate from you...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: And to be a child trapped inside that
*Georgia groans*
Karen: I mean…
Georgia: Well… then… I under- I kind of can’t help but understand taking it out on someone else. Cause I was bullied as a kid, but I was a little.. And my brother and sister were... you know, fucked with me. Not abusive, but as older siblings will do.
Karen: As they do.
Georgia: And I’m the youngest so I can’t take it out on anyone else.
Karen: Right.
Georgia: So I just hurt animals… No, I’m just kidding. Wouldn’t that be fucking hilarious?
*Karen laughing*
Georgia: So I just hurt my cat… No, oh my god. Um… but yeah, you… you… when my mom would be a bitch, I would get so fucking pissed. It’s that thing of punching a wall because there’s nothing else to punch.
Karen: Yeah. Yeah… it’s…
*Georgia sighs*
Georgia: It’s… and, and, this kid clearly wasn’t taught self-control if he was abused by his dad and his sister
*Karen scoffs*
Georgia: He was taught that violence against someone smaller than you is okay.
Karen: Yes, that’s exactly right. That’s almost like… uhhh… a larger… almost like, he… I know he didn’t do this in any way consciously… It’s symbolic.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: It’s him going… here’s what we do.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: Here’s what we do and I’m so mad.
Georgia: Here’s what happens to me…
Karen: Yeah, it’s gonna go this far. The idea of a father AND sister being bullying and abusive within a family
*Georgia groans*
Karen: It’s disgusting to me. Like, that’s… what a terrible, sad life that kid had.
Georgia: I completely see it. You know, I think about like… the things we… I-I was bullied, but I said so many shitty things to kids… like, the nerdy kids when I was younger and I think about them all the time and what their home lives were like and that I contributed to their fucking.. Their awful lives. And it disgusts me.
Karen: I mean, that’s… that’s the thing too. I feel like when you’re kids, you do these things
because you don’t have… uh… you-you don’t have the… a mature sense...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: …of where you belong in the world, what other people’s lives are like.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: I remember, honestly being like… in 5th grade, and asking my teacher, who was a friend of our family, and she would eat dinner at our house sometimes…
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: And I asked her one night, like there was a girl in my class… and I was like, “why is Sarah’s face always dirty?”
*Georgia moans*
Karen: And she was like… because she doesn’t have anyone to wash it for her.
Georgia: Right.
Karen: And I… it blew my mind.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: I was like, I assumed every single other kid had the exact same life I did.
Georgia: Totally. Yeah. And I mean, like, for my… in my existence, I was loudly making fun of other kids because I was happy that I wasn’t the kid at that moment getting made fun of.
Karen: Exactly right!
Georgia: And because I wanted to show everyone that I was part of the group too. That I could make fun of this person too. Because I was getting made fun of. And it-it’s not okay.
Karen: 100%! We’ve talked about it… I do it to this day, of like... the quickest way to bond with someone is to figure out who you both hate.
Georgia: Oh for sure!
Karen: And that’s just human nature. That’s that thing of like… yeah, you deflect, “I’m not the bad one.”
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: That person is the bad one.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: I mean that’s… it’s how we do it and it takes a lot of strength and a lot of like… it’s very difficult to have like, with human interaction, if you’ve gotten dealt a shitty hand every time, to still be like, I’m gonna handle this great.
Georgia: To be kind.
Karen: When you’re 12.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: I mean, like, you can’t do it.
Georgia: It’s hard enough… we’re… we’re 31 and it’s hard enough to...
Karen: I wish I was 31, girl! Yeah
*both giggle*
Georgia: You are! Karen’s 31, everyone!
Karen: On this podcast, I get to be 31?
Georgia: Yeah, you get to be whatever you want!
Karen: *singing* Awesome! I looooooove it! *normal* Drink!
Georgia: Drink! Shots!
*both laughing*
Georgia: Uh… what was I gonna say? I don’t remember… let’s not have kids ever.
Karen: I mean...
Georgia: They’re terrible people.
Karen: That;sd the other thing is like… that… um… I remember saying some- the last time I was home, i said something bitchy to my niece who I adore and we get along great...
Georgia: Mhmm
Karen: ...But she was just doing something kind of… jerky… and then I was just like “just go do it” or whatever I said and then she was like “mmm alright”
Karen: And instead of like having a sensitive reaction...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: She’s learned, because she also is the daughter of an only… you know, her… she’s an only child, my mother…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: …my sister is a single mother.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: And so… she’s kind of learned to roll with punches for a 9 year old so much better, where I was like… oh man, cause I felt guilty the second it came out of my mouth…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: And I was like, if I had like a favorite aunt that like… bitched at me, like… sniped at me
Georgia: Yeeeahhh… Yeah
Karen: It would hurt my feelings…
Georgia: Me too
Karen: But she was kind of like… whatever dude, and walked away.
Georgia: She’s like more of an adult because… she’s a single… her mother’s a single mother and she’s a k- and she doesn’t have siblings, so she acts... Your sister probably treats her more like an adult than a kid.
Karen: Yes… I think she’s at… and she’s very close to her two cousins, who are like.. 2 and 4 years older than her…
Georgia: Oh, right.
Karen: So she’s like, she’s kind of like... toughened up a little bit.
Georgia: Oooh.
Karen: But it’s… that’s the other thing is like, when you… everybody gets picked on in some way. You learn that picking on people is a good way to up your own status and… there’s no other… when you’re young like that, y- there aren’t options…
Georgia: No.
Karen: Unless you got to some amazing progressive school that teaches you about stuff like that… Which, it doesn’t work. It’s like...
Georgia: No.
Karen: Somebody’s gonna get thrown in that garbage can
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: And the way to make it not you is to make sure you’re not…
Georgia: But then you go home at night and your parents are abusive too, like...
*Karen sighs*
Georgia: Like, it bums... Vince always gets sad when he sees kids, cause he remembers how you just feel like, that this is gonna go on forever.
Karen: Yep.
Georgia: You’re never gonna have control over your life, you’re never gonna be able to make decisions on your own. It feels fucking infinite.
Karen: Yeah. For sure. Well, and… like, school politics also
Georgia: Right.
Karen: It feels like, oh this is my world.
Georgia: Huge.
Karen: This bully’s always gonna be in my life.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: This pers- this girl’s always gonna be prettier than me.
Georgia: Totally.
Karen: It’s all that kind of stuff.
Georgia: Oh totally.
Karen: …that you… it’s just the way it.. like a teen brain works... Or preteen.
Georgia: And it turns out that we ended up being the coolest ones out there. Who’da thunk?
Karen: Here’s how you be the coolest ones…
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: For a really long time, you’re so not the coolest ones.
*Georgia laughing*
Georgia: Yeah
Karen: You’re severely not the coolest one.
Georgia: The least coolest one usually becomes either a murderer...
Karen: Uh huh.
Georgia: Or the coolest one.
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: Pick one.
Karen: Yes, that’s right. It’s your choice. It is a choice.
*Georgia laughing*
Georgia: It is a choice.
Karen: It’s a path you go down.
Georgia: I mean, that’s…. that’s what this whole thing comes back around to. It is a choice and these two boys chose to kill someone.
Karen: In the moment… but… but...
*Georgia sighs*
Georgia: I know...
Karen: Then, here’s the like… I’m just gonna play devil’s advocate psychiatrist...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: That’s like… if you have explosive disorder… it is… you do not have a choice.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: It’s like that thing where I get nervous and my mouth starts talking, then I’m like… oh no, I’m talking.
Georgia: It’s not a choice.
Karen: What am I saying?
Georgia: And… we have so many… um… outlets now. Psychi-psychiatry and psychology and… intense therapy to, to help control it. But… but would you feel comfortable if that person was out in society now?
Karen: Uhhhhhhh…… Probably not. Like not in my town.
Georgia: Yeah. So that’s...
Karen: I would just be… it’s that thing where like… as a parent, you’d just be so paranoid.
Georgia: Totally. Totally. Alright. Well… that’s my favorite murder.
*Karen groans*
Karen: It’s...
Georgia: Can I pick next week’s favorite murd… topic, I mean?
Karen: Yeah, message received, Georgia.
Georgia: *sarcastic* Well, it was all your fault Karen, that I got so dark and deep. So let’s um… do you wanna read a hometown murder?
Karen:*high pitched* So can I pick next week’s…?
Georgia: So can I…? It’s like… “Butterflies… kittens… something nice”
Karen:*jokingly* Butterfly murders? Oh… the butterfly murders of the Philippines… Yes. We absolutely can do that one…
*Georgia giggling*
Georgia: Do you wanna read a… Let’s see, why don’t we do this? So, you wanna read a favor… a hometown murder that we got emailed. You can email us at myfavoritemurder@gmail.com, your hometown murder. We’ll read one every fucking week, *giggles* even though we get so many, it’s incredible, I love you guys. And then maybe let’s do a quick separate episode of other people’s… favori… on the Facebook page, I said, “what’s your hidden in plain sight murder?”
Karen: Oh yeah.
Georgia: And I can read a few of those and maybe we can read one or two hometown murders. So we’ll have a mini episode that’ll come out maybe… a couple days after the regular one comes out.
Karen: Great.
Georgia: Is that cool?
Karen: I love it.
Georgia: Okay. So why don’t you read me… read me a hometown murder, please.
Karen: Okay, cool. This is also another… I’m getting... I’m getting obsessed with follow-up.
Georgia: Oh.
Karen: Like I’m getting obsessed with like... thoroughness and research and… but I really do genuinely love it. So this is a bit of a follow up, but there’s much more to it.
Georgia: Mkay.
Karen: And it’s from Lily K., we’ll-we’ll say...
Georgia: Yes.
Karen: “Hi Karen and Georgia, can’t believe how much you sound like my friend Julie and I when we’re together and really get going. Um… I’ve been obsessed with true crime for so long… uh, that I became a forensic psychologist.”
*Georgia gasps*
Georgia: You are a fucking badass, Lily!
Karen: “Why not do what you love? There’s nothing else in the w- entire world that I’d rather do, and yes, you can intern for me sometime.”
Georgia: *excitedly* YESSSSS
Karen: Way to go! “I make my husband watch all the true crime shows and now when he gets sick, he’s convinced I poisoned him.”
*Georgia and Karen laughing*
Karen: “Like those deadly women of centuries past.”
Georgia: Love it.
Karen: “Anyway, I just found your podcast and your call for hometown crime. Then I saw you did mine in your second episode. Bummer. But I decided not to listen to it yet, and pretend you didn’t do it so I can tell you about it.”
*Georgia giggling*
Georgia: Love it.
Karen: “Paul Bernardo was mine and like I said, it affected me so much that I become a forensic psychologist.”
Georgia: Wow!
Karen: “When I was in high school in Toronto… *Canadian accent* Toronto… the Scarboro um… suburb of Toronto, rapes were going on. It was terrifying, the bus company started letting women out at any point along the route at night. Not just at stops, so we wouldn’t have to walk far from the stop to home.
Georgia: Oh wow.
Karen: Our regular gym classes were canceled and we got a specialist in to teach us self-defense.
Georgia: Holy shit.
Karen: Also, there was a guy at my high school who looked more like the sketch of the Scarboro rapist than Paul ever did, and he said he was thinking of changing his hair when the sketch came out but he was afraid that that would actually make him look more guilty.
Georgia: *laughing* Yeah, it would.
Karen: And then she put in parentheses, it wasn’t him by the way. Okay, so, just as the rapes um.. Started slowing down, we heard about the two girls uh… we heard about two girls go missing on that other side of Toronto. Did you know Leslie Mahoffie was actually locked out of her house the night that she met Paul Bernardo?
Georgia: *gasps*
Karen: Horrible. She was a rebellious teen and her mom picked that night to do some tough love on her when she broke curfew and locked her out... And her mom locked her out.
Georgia: Oh my god. Can I just say my mom… tough love is… like, was a thing...
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: And my mom fucking did it. And it was the worst.
Karen: In the 80s.
Georgia: Yeah, kids... parents, please don’t do tough love on your kids, it doesn’t work.
Karen: Yeah. *groans* That’s right. *Groans* Ohhh.
Georgia: Sorry. Go on.
Karen: No, that’s okay. It’s...
Georgia: Oh my god so she locked her kid out...
Karen: Her own mother locked her out of the house.
Georgia: How much does that woman hate herself now?
Karen: Oh… I can’t imag… I mean, that is...
Georgia: *groans*
Karen: If she’s even still alive.
Georgia: No, for sure.
Karen: Talk about the worst thing in the world.
Georgia: Totally.
Karen: A child dying and then you… *groans* Oh my god, that’s, that’s… nightmare. Um… Sorry. And then, Kristen French was also portrayed as the good girl and Leslie as the more rebellious. And Tammy, Carla’s sister, was basically forgotten. Um… I know every single detail about this case, but in case you don’t wanna hear it, I’ll get to some good anecdotes. Um… This was going on throughout my entire high school life, the rapes, the murders. Then my last year of high school, they found out it was Paul and Carla. Um, so of course, I went to the trial.
Georgia: *gasps*
Karen: I actually had this college boyfriend I wasn’t that into and I made him going with me
*Both giggling*
Karen: Poor guy, he was really upset about being there, but I loved it. Paul… um, oh, it says Paul was so incredibly in court… I wonder what she meant.
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: Um, when they took his handcuffs off, he wouldn’t just turn his wrists to have them removed, he would turn his entire body. It was like he was trying to look every person in the gallery in the eye.
Georgia: Ohhhh...
Karen: It was creepy. And then, in college, a girl in my dorm started dating a guy named Sam who looked like Paul. SO whenever I had a couple drinks in me, I’d call him Paul.
*both laughing*
Georgia: I LOVE this chick!
Karen: I also wrote all my psych papers in college on Paul Bernardo or Carla. Abnormal psych class, personality class. I wanted to know what made them tick.
Georgia: What a terrifying...
Karen: And then, she has a second one, but it’s super long.
Georgia: Yeah, what a terrifying fuckin’... thing to go through high school with.
Karen: I mean, it took up their whole world!
Georgia: Yeah!
Karen: It’s crazy.
Georgia: And then to find out a woman is involved, I don’t know why… Like that’s a different lev.. You would see a couple and think... I’m safe.
Karen: It’s the ultimate lure.
Georgia: We’ve talked about this… Yeah, Episode 2, was it?
Karen: I think so. But that’s the reason I love that she gave all those details...
Georgia: Yeah!
Karen: ...cause that was the one where I wasn’t… I was a little fuzzy on my details in that episode.
Georgia: Well, it’s shit you wouldn’t know… it’s shit you wouldn’t know about. It’s the same thing about watching the Simpsons.
*Karen laughs*
Georgia: Is that it’s information that you know, you watch the whole trial but you could not have known what it was like to be on the jury...
Karen: Yes
Georgia: Or what it was like in Marcia Clark’s office when her boss was pissed about the glove… that, that... It was their idea to have him try the glove on.
Karen: Yeah. *Scoffs*
Georgia: It’s just details.
Karen: And also that like… being... I love that she loved it so much she went to trials.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: That’s amazing.
Georgia: I can’t tell you like… I’ve been asking people their hometown murders for years, when I’m like at parties and drinking too much...
*Karen giggles*
Georgia: ...and calling people by like murderers names
*Karen giggles*
Georgia: And this is like… just feeding, this is feeding me on a level that i can’t even handle.
Karen: Yeah, you can really put away that voice in your head that says you’re weird in any way.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: It’s just simply not weird.
Georgia: Because we have an inbox full of hometown murders to… I hope we haven’t gotten any like… yeah. It’s incredible.
Karen: Any what, sorry?
Georgia: I don’t know… like I wouldn’t… like you said someone asked us to be on their podcast at our gmail and like… I wouldn’t see it cause it’s just buried underneath.
Karen: That is… *sighs* there’s at least one person but I think there might be more than one person.
Georgia: We need to… we need to give them a different email address.
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: I love it. I did ask… so I wrote a thing on facebook real quick about… and I said, um, that, uh, like a… um… cocktail trivia, like information that i love. So mine was that, um… that everyone knows that all serial killers don’t have three names… as everyone thinks they do. Like John Wayne Gacy. It’s that John… they use their middle names so that normal people named John Gacy don’t… people don’t think that they’re… you know, people don’t look them up in the fuckin’... um… Yellow Pages and say John Gacy, is that you? No, it’s John...
Karen: And go kill them at their house.
Georgia: Wayne Gacy. Right. SO I asked people their like, cocktail trivia murder facts, and this person… can I read a couple?
Karen: Please.
Georgia: That DNA evidence…. Um, that DNA evidence was first used to convict a killer in England in the 80s. The killer was name Colin Pitchfork and he had killed two girls.
Karen: Wow.
Georgia: Which is amazing. That serial killers are apparently obsessive masturbators since they can’t attain normal sexual relationships.
Karen: Awww...
Georgia: Most women who kill when using a weapon will use a knife because it’s more personal.
Karen: Yep.
Georgia: Um, manyl killers started out as peeping toms. Let’s see.... um...
Karen: That is really creepy because peeping toms… culturally… have always been treated very lightly like… “Oh this kook up in the tree.”
Georgia: Yeah…“oh he likes to… oh he wants to look at cute girls.”
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: No.
Karen: Like, you know, Animal House...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: I’ve got my binoculars and I’m looking into this...
Georgia: Right. That’s murdery!
Karen: You’re… you’re on your path to murder.
Georgia: Totally! Um, one more. Aileen Wuornos last words were.. “Yes, I would just like to say I’m sailing with the Rock and I’ll be back like Independence Day with Jesus. June 6th like the movie, big mothership and all. I’ll be back. I’ll be back.”
*Both laughing*
Karen: She was fuckin’ crazy!
Georgia: And someone… someone replied and said, “which is weird because that was also my wedding vows.”
*Both laughing*
Georgia: This is why I love the fucking Facebook group!
Karen: YEEEESSSS!
Georgia: So much!
Karen: The beeeessstttt! Oh my God!
Georgia: Um… okay, so… everyone’s...
Karen: “I’ll be sailing with the Rock!” *laughing* Did she mean the wrestler?
Georgia: I think so… no, the movie the Rock!
Karen: Oh...
Georgia: I think?
Karen: Fuck.
Georgia: I didn’t know about that.
Karen: Aiiiillllleeeeeen.
Georgia: Aileen, honey.
Karen: Giiiirl.
Georgia: Sweetheart.
Karen: Girl.
Georgia: Angel.
*Karen laughing*
Georgia: Um… you can… so we’re at myfavemurder on Twitter.
Karen: Yes.
Georgia: And you can email us at myfavoritemurder@gmail.com and please follow… uh… go to our group
*Karen laughing*
Georgia: On Facebook. My Favorite Murder on Facebook. It’s private so you can just like talk all the shit you want.
Karen: But also, those things people are making! Did you see the girl on Twitter...
Georgia: *whispers* Yes!
Karen: That’s making fake books?
Georgia: No!
Karen: Wait, I’ll… I’ll…
Georgia: I’ll tell you what… okay, real quick, someone’s making… someone on the Facebook Group made a… uh… a murder BINGO!
*Karen laughing*
Karen: I saw that!
Georgia: Yeah! And someone else made me… this, made this beautiful um… a quote that I said I think last week, it said uh… “I don’t want… I don’t want any survivors.” And it’s like, in the background of beautiful flowers and stuff.
Karen: I saw that! It’s so good!
Georgia: I want them to keep doing that! And of course, the um...
Karen: It looks like an inspirational quote but it’s you saying “I don’t wanna see any survivors.”
*Laughing*
Georgia: And then… of course, the um… uh… the d-the drinking game which is like… everyone just keeps adding like, “When they say this. When they do that. When they say this” It’s the best!
Karen: *groans* I mean, that feeds right into my humongous, deep ego need
Georgia: No, totally. People are listening to us!
Karen: Um… *laughs* it’s a girl on Twitter named ThinIzzy...
Georgia: Mhmm...
Karen: And she’s doing these fake… she keeps writing “read my new book!”
Georgia: *Gasps*
Karen: And this is “Don’t Burp: The Robert Durst Story”
*Georgia laughing*
Karen: It’s just stuff we’ve said about people and she’s making it into a book...
Georgia: I love her!
Karen: Or maybe... I think it’s things we’ve said. “He Definitely Killed like 8 People: I was a Teenage Robert Durst” and it’s like… Robert Durst when he was like in his early 20s...
*Georgia laughing*
Karen: And it just… they look like book covers.
Georgia: What a gem!
Karen: Well done, ThinIzzy! Oh, I love this one!
Georgia: Which one is it?
Karen: “The Staircase Part 2”
Georgia: And it’s just an owl!
Karen: And then it’s “He was gay in the South” is one quote, and a microscopic owl feather is on the other side.
Georgia: Oh my god and it’s like a beautiful photo of an owl!
Karen: Yeah.
Georgia: That’s incredible. People are the best.
Karen: It’s very exciting.
Georgia: I think this is… what we’re doing here is just trying to make everyone know that there are… there are a lot of murders, but there are a lot more funny people!
Karen: And here’s the other thing… I remember when everybody started going batshit crazy about… I know I’ve already talked shit about this on this podcast, but… in Sex and the City in the,... whenever it was… the late 90s or early 2000s...
Georgia: Mhmm.
Karen: ...and I was like… “Has the world gone insane? Who gives ONE fuck about that stupid show?”
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: And it was like… “I’m a Miranda and I’m gonna drink a cosmopolitan” or whatever
Georgia: Right, right.
Karen: And I was just sitting there like… I guess I’m just... a total weirdo and a total outsider.
Georgia: Yep.
Karen: …to live alone
Georgia: You’ll never connect with people on a normal… because they like shit like Sex and the City.
Karen: Yes. And just… and so, things like this… it just… my heart...
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: ...grows ten sizes everytime I hear anything about it. Cause it’s like… We have our people.
Georgia: Yeah.
Karen: We just didn't know they were out there.
Georgia: Well, the most fun is that we’re the most popular ones out of the entire… group of people because we’re the hosts of this podcast.
Karen: We… oh… you mean, of everybody?
Georgia: Yeah, like cause that’s…
*Karen laughing*
Karen: Cause we started it?
Georgia: And going back to… it’s nice that we’re the bo… like, we’re the heads.
Karen: I have to say...
Georgia: Yeah...
Karen: Over one quick conversation where you were like… we should do a podcast! And I was like… okay. And then here’s why I love Georgia Hardstark… cause then she actually does it
*Georgia laughing*
Georgia: I wish I c...
Karen: Where, I would’ve. It would’ve taken me four years to really make a plan or be like, no let’s actually do it...
Georgia: *laughing* I’d love to go to little tiny Georgia and say… someday you’re gonna talk about murder and people are gonna listen to you! She would’ve been like “YESSSS! That’s fucking awesome!” Georgia, stop cursing, you’re a tiny little thing.
*Karen laughing*
Karen: *sighs*
Georgia: Uh... yay!
Karen: Yaaaaay
Georgia: Find us on places and thanks for listening!
Karen: We love you! Stay sexy!
Georgia: Yeah.
*Instrumental strum*
Feral Audio
